Cork Free Presbyterian Church, 10 Briarscourt (Annex) Shanakiel, Cork, Ireland 
Pastor: Colin Maxwell. Email: colin.maxwell@fpcmission.org

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INDEPENDENT BAPTIST MISSIONARY CHALLENGES CALVINISM


William Carey 
Great Calvinist Missionary

Henry Martyn
Great Calvinist Missionary

David Brainerd
Great Calvinist Missionary


William Burns
Great Calvinist Missionary

John  Eliot  
Great  Calvinist Missionary


I picked up on these articles through the Calvinist Gadfly blog. The missionary challenger to the Doctrines of Grace is Terry McGovern who is a Baptist Missionary in Papua New Guinea.  The following are his remarks (in black) followed by my comments (in red).  The tone of these articles is quite good at the moment and I hope that will continue. To be honest, I usually turn away from articles, whether written  by Calvinists or non Calvinists when they start to engage in heavy personal attacks. So far, (10-10-06) there is none of this here. Terry fires the first shots. I will adopt the strategy of trying to honestly agree where I can, will give my opponent here the benefit of any doubt and not make him an offender for a word, if such can be done without confusing truth. I get the impression here from the beginning that he is going to try and refute a kind of Calvinism that really doesn't exist, at least in the mainstream. If he were attacking Hyper Calvinism (as opposed to Calvinism) then I would be in agreement with him, but his first paragraph omits any reference to the word "hyper" and brands the 5 points of Calvinism (TULIP) as "dangerous." Since he has made the charge, then the onus of proof lies on him. I will seek in my replies to show [i] Calvinism, as represented by the 5 points are not dangerous and [ii] they cannot be dangerous because they are totally Scriptural in their content.

I have already left a comment on his blog, which reads as follows:

Hi, As a Calvinist, I am interested in what you have to say. One thing I have noticed though...you write like David Cloud. Am I right in saying that he is your source material? There's nothing wrong in such a practice if he is, but Cloud isn't noted for giving references direct from definitive Calvinist sources (e.g. the major Church Confessions) and for giving us what he thinks Calvinism is. Without being patronising, I find this is a common trait in some of the anti Calvinistic circles. It will become evident how deeply you have researched your subject. If you want a serious and honest discussion, then I suggest that you do a good job and back up your statements with verifiable and definitive quotes. Otherwise, you will rise no higher than the David Clouds, Dave Hunts etc., of this world and we might as well stick to them. I am interested in how you view perseverance of the saints.

Yes, as a Calvinist, I agree with your statement as it stands.
Colin Maxwell (Calvinist and Missionary to the lost in the Republic of Ireland)

Here goes for the original postings (in black)  and my comments (in red)

First posting on this subject:

From time to time, I will be posting on one of the biggest dangers I see to the gospel and missions, Calvinism. I will be posting on different aspects of the dangerous TULIP. It’s effects are just beginning to come into many Baptist churches today and are changing people’s thinking. I fear if the current trend is not curved, much damage will be done to world missions.

I am always a bit wary of opening paragraphs like these. There are many dangers to the gospel and missions out there, and to list Calvinism as "one of the biggest" either smacks of empty sensationalism or will take much effort to prove the point. The difficulty of producing such evidence  is heightened by the fact that there are many Calvinist missionaries, not only in church history (some of them are considered the among the "greats" of the missionary cause) but who are presently on the field. Calvinist churches have mission boards which support missionaries, hold missionary rallies where missionaries are brought home to report and appeal for help and have able preachers preach from missionary based texts, challenging the young people (and others) to yield themselves to the will of God and be willing to go to the Mission field if called to do so by the Lord. These same churches support missionaries (and not only Calvinistic ones) with their prayers, wisdom and practical support. There are currently two missionaries in Cork City, including one American Baptist brother (and the present writer) who engage in missionary work while holding to the 5 points of Calvinism. I notice below that Terry admits that "today's Calvinist is missions friendly" so that in itself makes us wonder why Calvinism should be considered as one of the greatest dangers.

Furthermore, Terry considers the TULIP doctrines to be dangerous. This goes beyond mere disagreement with them and again, the onus is on him to justify the cry of alarm.  As indicated in the comment I left on his blog (mentioned above) I trust that he is going to display that he has real knowledge of these doctrines. If my suspicion is correct that he is leaning heavily on David Cloud (who wrote similar things just a few days ago) then I feel justified in expressing my doubts. However, that is just a haunch on my part and I am ready to stand corrected if needs be. Any danger from the doctrines of Calvinism will lie in the wrong application of any of their truths and this can be said of any doctrine. There is no good reason why the doctrines of Calvinism should be considered dangerous. That they can be abused by their professors is admitted, that ungodly sinners, ever seeking an excuse to continue on in their sins, have sometimes pointed to them and used them as an excuse is also admitted. But such things does not make them either wrong or dangerous. We could throw out the teaching of hell fire and salvation by grace along without the deeds of the law or the Doctrine of the Cross on the same premise.

So the onus is on Terry to justify his early attacks. He has nailed his colours very firmly to the mast. He has made his charges and expressed his fears. Are they justified? Time will tell. You, the reader, can judge.

Major change usually takes time, so this change in thinking will not occur overnight, but over the process of time. Soon, we will hear the voices William Carey heard when he told a group of preachers he wanted to reach the world with gospel. Those Calvinistic voices told him something like this, “Sit down! When God wants to convert the heathen, He will do so Himself without the Help of you or I.” No, we are not seeing this yet in Baptist churches, but it is coming unless something is done. Today’s Calvinist is missions friendly, but over time that will change, just because of the nature of their theology.

Two things.

[i] Terry has taken on the role of the foretelling prophet here. Calvinism, even since its relatively modern revival during the Reformation period, has been around a pretty long time. We must wonder why after nearly 500 years all these dangers have yet to come to pass. Why "soon"? By Terry's own admission, it is not happening now. He can point to one pretty infamous case in the distant past when William Carey (himself, incidentally, a 5 point Calvinist) was rebuked by one man. (See here for a closer examination of this incident and its relationship to Calvinism.) It does seem a bit strange that this is all going to happen "soon". Since I cannot tell the future (as indeed neither can Terry) then I think this fear of a major change is quite unfounded and certainly (by definition) as yet unproven. It might be helpful to keep to the facts rather than the speculation.

[ii] If there is nothing in the TULIP doctrines up to now to hinder missionary work - and one's man's foolish outburst against Carey is hardly evidence of a wide scale denunciation of missions - and (as admitted) there is no evidence of it now, what will there be in future Calvinism to justify the charge? Terry attaches the blame to the "nature of [Calvinist] theology" but our theology (at least as far as the 5 points are concerned is a fixed theology, and  if no real hindrance is discernible either then or now, then any change must be attributed to a forsaking of this theology. Again, the burden of proof lies on Terry to show that belief in the 5 points naturally hinders evangelism and missions. I think he has given himself a very hard task and I would rather defend in this case than prosecute.

The past several years has seen a rise in Calvinism throughout Baptist churches. I believe there are several factors as to why this has taken place. One reason would be a reaction against quick prayerism. Christians began to realize this, “123 pray after me”, was not working. Churches were seeing thousands of “decisions”, but there was no fruit. Pride seemed to become a motivation for our service instead of a love for God as well. Our “method” was simply focused on getting people to pray a prayer. Books were written, classes were taught, which showed us how to get someone to pray a prayer. Much of this information was based upon manipulation and psychology, instead of the convicting work of the Holy Spirit upon the heart. As Christians began realizing this was not right, nor was it working, the doctrine of Calvinism was there to provide answers.

It is a nice thought that discerning Christians who have managed (when many others haven't) to swim against the tide, should turn to the doctrines of Calvinism for their answers.  I think it is fair to say that such discerning Christians have only embraced Calvinism because they see it as the expression of the Bible doctrine of salvation. This would be true in my own case. If for one moment I did not think that either all 5 or any 1 of the TULIP doctrines were true, then I would drop them like a hot brick immediately. I am not bound to the feet of Calvin or of any human teacher. My desire is to be Biblical in all my belief.

Another reason for the increase in Calvinism was the rise of two prominent Calvinistic preachers within fundamentalism: John Macarthur and John Piper. Both men, through their preaching and writings, began to promote Calvinism. It appealed to an intellectual side of the house, at a time when many were tired of shallowness in some churches.

Cloud says the same thing. (I review Cloud's article here) I think it is a bit of a bug bear to be honest. There are many folk who hold to these doctrines without being intellectuals. Spurgeon believed that every last member of the Tabernacle was committed to the Calvinist doctrines (4:182) - do not tell me that they were all budding intellectuals south of the Thames River in Victorian London. He himself learned them from the old cook (39:478)

Calvinism of today began using several different means to get people to convert to their theological position. One of the means used is psychology. Let me give one example. A Calvinist boldly proclaims you are either Calvinist or Arminianist. Well, certainly no good Baptist wants to be identified with Armenianism! The fact is, though, many such as myself, are neither Calvinistic nor Armenianistic in our theology. Instead of following the TULIP, I choose to follow the BIBLE. Just because I may agree with some points of Arminianism or Calvinism in no way makes me an Arminianist or Calvinist. This would be like a person telling me, because I believe in the virgin birth of Jesus Christ, I am a Catholic. If I happen to agree with Arminianism or Calvinism in some area, it is because their teaching is following the Bible. The fact is both theological positions (Calvinism/Arminianism) are not scriptural and contain error.

Any one who would fall for that kind of reasoning i.e. you are either a Calvinist or an Arminian may be easily won, but he will just be as easily lost again to some other cause.  I think Terry should be kind enough to acknowledge that some, if not many, people have come to their Calvinistic views because they believe this is what the Bible teaches. He doesn't have to agree that this is what the Bible teaches to do this, but it would be nice to acknowledge at least the sincerity and effort that many Calvinists have made to come to their understanding of what the Bible teaches. Again, it is worth noting here, that while on one hand we have the intellectuals embracing these doctrines (previous paragraph) now we have people who are prone to psychological manipulation!

At the heart of this issue is a needed understanding of how salvation works. In my next post on this topic, I will discuss the “P” of the TULIP. It is here where it becomes clear Calvinist teachings lack an understanding of what Christ actually did for us on the Cross. They fail to realize why one who is truly saved can never lose their salvation.

Again, here is another charge laid against us which must needs be proved to be of any worth. We look forward to the second part. There is obviously a lot of work to be done.

Part 2

Salvation

(This is my second post in the last two days. Yesterday, there was a large increase in traffic to my blog due to my Calvinism post from last week. Many new comments were posted. I say that so that you will not miss out on the previous blog I posted Monday. Please take time to read it.)

This post is my second post on the Calvinism issue.

I would agree with Calvinism in that one who has truly trusted Jesus Christ will not lose their salvation. However, I strongly disagree with how they come to their conclusion of WHY a true Christian can never lose their salvation. The “P” of Calvinism demonstrates a lack of understanding on how salvation works.

It is nice that there is some agreement here on the security of the child of God. This is a strange development (although welcomed) because the whole 5 points of Calvinism (TULIP) were considered dangerous above, but  here we do basically agree, although there the profession of a strong disagreement over the arrival at the conclusion.  This leads us to conclude that the danger does not lie in the eternal security of the child of God but just on the nuts and bolts. Is this so dangerous then as was flagged above? I think not.

First let’s look at how salvation works. (This, of course, will not be an exhaustive study on soteriology, but a general overview.) What is the one thing that has separated man from God? Sin! (Isaiah 59:2) Sin is the cause of death (separation). (Romans 6:23) Sin is the reason we need a savior. Sin is the reason all men are condemned. Sin is the reason for physical, spiritual and eternal death.

We must be excused at the moment from looking for a definitive statement, preferably from some Calvinistic creed, on the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints. Terry is going to lie a Biblical foundation first on how salvation works.  He charges the Calvinist of demonstrating a lack of understanding on this matter. OK...we assume that a definitive statement is coming later because it is natural (and just) to look for one so that we can see just what Calvinists believe. If Terry wants to lay a good Biblical foundation first, there is no self respecting Calvinist on earth will object. But (as indicated in the comment left on his blog) we do want the references too. The last thing I want to be doing is taking on someone who hasn't bothered doing his homework or who is just parroting the mistakes of others.

I agree with the paragraph above. 

The fact is all men are going to die and face judgment. (Hebrews 9:27) “All have sinned,” and unless something takes place to remove one’s sin, he will face an eternal death (separation) from God in the lake of fire. (Romans 6:23; Rev 20:12-15; 21:8)

Agreed.

Now, the question is what removes our sin? (Please remember the ONLY thing keeping us from God is sin.) At first glance, the future of man might look hopeless. Why? We all have sin. Judgment is coming. The lake of fire is real! There is an eternal death! We are guilty before God.

Amen.

The most prominent attribute of God in the Bible is His Holiness. The wages of sin are a result of God’s holiness and justice. God is a holy and just God. Because of this, there is a penalty of sin. He will NOT allow sin to go unpunished. If He did, that would go against His holiness and His justice. Now, another attribute of God is Love. Some have asked the question, if God loves everyone why does He not just save everyone? The answer is God’s love can not over ride His Holiness. Sin must be paid for.

True.

So how does God solve the issue between His holiness and his love for His creation? Jesus Christ! God became a man. He was 100% man and 100% God. He lived a perfect life without sin. He was the only person ever born to accomplish this. He had no earthly father, thus no sin nature. He was PERFECT. He met the requirements for God’s holiness and His righteous standard (perfection).

I agree.

So what does that have to do with our salvation? Everything! Let me explain.

In God’s infinite wisdom and love, he decided to sacrifice Himself. How so? God determined to pay the penalty of sin himself. What is the penalty? Death!

I agree again.

Because Jesus was without sin, and perfect, He was able to take our penalty. (Rom 5:8, Rom 6:23) Why? Because He was without sin. He was innocent. Had He been just another man, he would be facing the same judgment and not in a position to help anyone. It would be like two men drowning the ocean trying to save each other. Neither knows how to swim and neither is in a position to help the other because both are in the same danger. The two men would need someone who is NOT drowning to come and rescue/save them.

True.

Remember the penalty of sin is death. He went to the cross and shed His blood as a sacrifice for sins. Rev 1:5 He truly took our place. Why did God do this? He died for us because He loves us. (John 3:16) Jesus paid the penalty, but three days later He defeated death and ROSE from the dead! He defeated the penalty of sin!! This sacrifice, Jesus made, satisfied the holiness and justice of God!!! (I John 2:2)

I agree.

A great verse to show us what Jesus accomplished on the cross is II Cor 5:21: “For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”

Yes. I agree again.

Jesus Christ was made sin, while we were made the righteousness of God! This means Jesus took ALL of your sin upon himself and fully gives you His righteousness. Now, did Jesus have sin? No! He was perfect. So if the Lord gives you His righteousness, it is a perfect righteousness meeting God’s standard for perfection. Thus, there is NO LONGER a barrier between you and God. You would have eternal life! Your sin is gone! It has been paid for, by the work of Jesus Christ on Calvary!

Amen.

The big question is how does this work of Jesus Christ be applied to our life. How does this work become effectual to us?

If the death and resurrection of Jesus is applied to our life, our sin is removed and we receive the righteousness of God! (II Cor 5:21)

I agree.

Now, if you are a Calvinist you need to ask yourself if you agree with the above statement. Do you think the statement agrees with Calvinistic theology as written? (In particular the “P” of the TULIP) .I realize I have not specifically mentioned anything about the “P” as of yet. I will tie it together in my next post, as well as how the work of Jesus is applied to our life. I just want you to think about it before the next post.

Please hold comments only to the matter of salvation on this post. I know many would like to begin to discuss the perseverance issue, but that needs to wait until my next post. Allow me to make my argument first, and then feel free to disagree and comment.

This post was needed so that I could establish a good foundation for my next post. I would think most would agree with what I have written so far.

The red comments above say it all. We are in 100% agreement in the conclusions of your little Bible survey. I have commented early, but mostly on your introduction and set out what is really expected from you if you are going to do justice to your thesis. I remind you again that your charges are serious charges e.g. that Calvinism is dangerous and one of the greatest dangers to missions. Your forecast of the future is bleak as far as Calvinism and missions are concerned. All sorts of Calvinists, unlike those of today, will be popping up and trying to discourage other Calvinists from going forth to tell the heathen of the way of salvation. Much damage will be caused. You tell us that Calvinists demonstrates a lack of understanding of how the gospel works  - a major fault line in our creed  if true.  I trust that you will either substantiate your claims, or display the basic decency to withdraw them. To be honest, I think you have bitten off more than you can chew, but I await your next installment for the required and substantiated proof.

Part 3 (The Perseverance of the Saints) (Posted 11-10-06)

[Note: The only changes I have made is to run several sentences together into one paragraph. Terry is very liberal with his use of the paragraph and I find it a bit disconcerting for reading with its necessary stops and starts. No other changes have been made.]

For this post, we will examine, in the light of Biblical salvation, the doctrine of perseverance of the saints as taught by Calvinists. This post is not an attack on any one person, but on a false doctrine. Many saved people who love the Lord, as much as I, believe in this false doctrine. My desire is not to prove I am right! My desire is to glorify my Lord, earnestly contend for the faith, and be of help to fellow brethren. (This is a long post. I do not like to post things normally that are long, but this was needed. Please read it all and reread it before posting comments. Please forgive my grammatical errors.) If you have not read the previous post already, you need to before reading this one.

A very noble desire and appreciated.

Here we go......

I need to finish off my last post first. I did not finish with what makes salvation effectual to a person. The answer in the Bible is (Act 20:21) Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Agreed again.

When a person realizes they are a condemned sinner before a holy and righteous God and truly believe in the work Jesus has done for them, they need to put their faith in Him with repentance. All who do so are saved! Acts 3:19, Acts 17:30; John 3:16,36 Romans 10:9,10; Acts 16:31. (There are dozen of verses teaching us this.) We are saved by grace through faith (Eph 2:8, 9). It is the grace of God that enables this. You see, none deserve salvation! It is because of the grace of God, that God has provided a means of salvation for His creation. (Titus 2:11) If God does not give grace, then Jesus does not go to the cross and we are all condemned! The key attributes of God in play are Holiness, Justice, Love, and Grace. My guess is the majority reading this would agree. It is the clear Biblical teaching.  So when a person “A” places their faith in Christ,  his sin was judged at Calvary, and he has received the righteousness of God! Because of these two FACTS person A is eternally secure. Why? His sin has already been judged. ALL of his sin. Two, he has now received the righteousness of God, in which there is NO sin. This righteousness has been imputed to the believer, just like his sins were imputed to Jesus. This is why the Bible gives us verse after verse on everlasting life. Our sin has already been judged and the Lord God has given us His righteousness!

Basically I agree again, although Terry is getting his tenses a bit awry.  The believer's sin was judged at Calvary (nearly 2,000 years ago) He receives the imputed righteousness of Christ  the moment he believes and so is eternally secure.

There is no longer anything separating us from God. This is one reason why, at salvation, the Holy Spirit indwells the believer and his spirit is given life. At that moment he receives eternal life. Eternal life is NOT heaven. Heaven is a place. I will not receive eternal life when I die. I already have eternal life (John 3:36)! Jesus said, “I am the way the truth and the LIFE.” He is eternal life, and all true believers have received Him! Here are some more scriptures teaching us what has happened to the believer’s sin.
(1Jo 3:5) And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
(Heb 1:3) Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
(1Jo 4:10) Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
These verses teach us our sins have been taken away, purged, and that Jesus was the propitiation of our sins. (He satisfied the holiness of God by His sacrifice.) This is why the believer is eternally secure.

Fair enough so far.

Now let’s compare that with the teaching of Calvinism. The Calvinistic doctrine of perseverance teaches perseverance is essential for salvation. They believe it provides the believer needed assurance, and that it is EFFECTUAL in their salvation. They believe it is the proof of a true believer. I do not have so much a problem with the idea of perseverance providing assurance, as well it being evidence of salvation. The Bible does teach, “By their fruits ye shall know them.” My problem lies with the teaching making it effectual in salvation. Now please don’t take my word for it. Let’s look at some of the teachings by prominent Calvinists of our day. (All of this material, sermons, I have personally read. I went to NO book or web page teaching against Calvinism for this material! This has been my own research. )

I'm reading on before I comment.

First, let’s look at a comment by RC Sproul. He was teaching on the perseverance of the saints when he made this comment. I have NOT taken it out of context: “In and of myself I am capable of sinning even unto the loss of my salvation, but I'm persuaded that God in his grace will keep me from that. (“Can a Sinning Christian Lose His Salvation”?)

First of all, the whole article is accessible here where the whole context may be observed:

"But I'm convinced that the Bible teaches that what God begins in our life, he finishes. Paul teaches, for example, in Philippians, "He who has begun a good work in you will perfect it to the end." My confidence rests in the fact that Jesus promises to intercede for me daily as my Great High Priest. My confidence for my future salvation rests in my confidence that God will keep his promise and that Christ will intercede for me and preserve me. Again, if it were left to me, I would obviously fall away. I like to look at it this way: I'm walking the Christian life with my hand in God's hand. If my perseverance depended upon my holding tightly to God's hand, I would surely fall away because at some point I would let go. But I believe that the Scriptures teach us that God is holding my hand, and because he is holding my hand, I don't have to fear that I will fall ultimately and finally. "

According to Sproul perseverance is necessary for salvation. That without God keeping him from sinning, he would fall away and lose his salvation. Now, I have some questions for Bro Sproul, Were or were not your sins purged by Jesus Christ? If so, then how could you ever fall under condemnation again!? If all of your sin has already been judged, how can you be judged again for your sin? If you could, that would attack the justice of God.

Two things here. One, as seen from the above quote, Sproul gives all credit to his perseverance to God. In  light of the next few quotes that are coming, there is nothing suggesting works here. The Believer perseveres because God graciously enables Him to do so. That 's the first point. Two: We are moving into the hypothetical here and that is quite unnecessary. What Terry is effectually saying is - What if God does not keep his promise to enable you to persevere etc., and you fall away - are not your sins forgiven and beyond condemnation? The simple answer to this is why bother with such non starter hypothetical situations? The child of God will be kept by the power of God through the means and channel of faith and although he will often sin on his journey to Heaven, yet he stands justified on the basis of God's grace (Romans 3:24) through the Blood of Christ (Romans 5:9) having received it by faith (Romans 5:9) There is nothing in Sproul's comments that should cause any believer any concern since Terry's objections are based on a hypothetical impossibility.

Let’s go to John Piper. These two quotes are taken from one of his sermons about perseverance of the saints. (Title of sermon: “Be diligent to enter God’s rest.”) “Persevering in faith to the end is a community project.” His point here was we need each other to “persevere.” (I thought it was all of God!?) “Anyone who puts faith in God's promises bought for us by the blood of Jesus, and is diligent not to throw that faith away, is a part of the people of God.” He, too, asserts to the necessity of perseverance for salvation. Notice his last statement. He is adding works to salvation! Now, he escapes this work salvation by teaching his perseverance is all of God, not of himself. However, he clearly contradicts that teaching in this sermon as is evident by the first quote.

Again, the whole article is accessible here. I think any reader interested in this discussion should take the time to read the whole of Piper's argument. It is a lead on from Hebrews 3:12-13  where Paul exhorted  the brethren to exhort one another daily lest any should depart from God with an evil heart of unbelief. I think Terry has defective views on how God works to cause His people to persevere. God uses means - in the case of the Hebrews, the means of  brethren exhorting one another. To regard such diligence as "works" (as if it had a meritorious value) must then open a can of worms with other references to the terms as employed by the inspired writer.  What does Terry make of Peter's words then in 2 Peter 1:10 where we read: "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: (2 Peter 1:10)" Other interesting texts include Hebrews 6:11/2 Peter 3:14 If Piper is "adding works unto salvation" because he uses the word "diligence" then the same charges should be leveled against the Apostles also. 

Eric Schumacher, This Calvinist has a sermon online called “The Necessity of Endurance for Salvation.” The title says it all, but let’s look at one quote from the sermon. The point he was trying to make, by this quote, is seen in many writings by Calvinist on this subject. I would like to address it. Here is the quote from that message: “So, we see that sanctification is a necessary attribute of a saving faith. One cannot be a saint without being sanctified. This is one reason we must be striving to endure: our salvation.” The first part of this statement I agree with, but his conclusion is unscriptural. He, too, is adding works to salvation. Notice WE must STRIVE. (Again he escapes saying he believes in works, because he is able to “endure” because of God not himself. That still does not change the fact that the enduring is his own work!)

Again, the whole article can be accessed here. If the word "strive" is another "works" word (as Terry indicates that "diligence" is) then again the NT writers are as guilty as these Calvinists whom he charges. Can we enter into heaven itself by works since the Lord Jesus Himself said: "Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able." (Luke 13:24)  Again, can we combat sin by works when Paul told the Hebrew Christians: Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. (Hebrews 12:4)?  It is hard to see what Terry makes of these things if he is going to be consistent in his criticism of Calvinists. 

Many sermons, and books by Calvinist concerning the “P”, use sanctification to teach the necessity of perseverance in relation to salvation.

There are three Biblical aspects to sanctification.

The first is positional sanctification. This takes place at the moment of salvation. (I Cor 6:11 “And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.” Here the Bible teaches we are sanctified already. This sanctification has already taken place. How? Because my sins were purged and I received the righteousness of God. Notice the verse says, I am sanctified in the “name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of God.” No perseverance is mentioned or referred to.

This kind of argument is almost juvenile. For instance, Jesus said that men needed the new birth to enter the Kingdom of Heaven in John 3:3 but no mention of faith or repentance. There is no repentance mentioned nor the new birth  in Acts 16:31 to the all important question of the previous verse. There is no mention of sanctification at all in the great chain of Romans 8:28-31 etc., It is a basic requirement that we interpret the Bible as a whole and not isolate individual verses.

There is also a progressive sanctification. The Bible says in I Peter 1:16 “…Be ye Holy for I am Holy.” While we are on the earth we need to strive for holiness. Not to be saved, but because we are saved. That is clearly seen is the context of the chapter in I Peter.  Problems arise when people mix positional and progressive sanctification.

I agree.

Finally, let’s look at statements by John MacArthur. (All quotes are taken from his Master Seminary Journal lecture on perseverance of the saints.) Here, Bro Macarthur was quoting from Murray: “But let us appreciate the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints and recognize that we may entertain the faith of our security in Christ only as we persevere in faith and holiness to the end.”

Found here in full. I agree with McArthur. Nowhere in the Bible is a man encouraged to believe that he is in Christ and therefore infallibly certain of salvation if he is living willfully in sin. If there is, then it cuts across many passages of Scripture such as the parable of the wise and foolish virgins, the man without the wedding garment, the passage where Jesus warned that not all who said to Him "Lord, Lord" would enter in.

Again, here he makes perseverance essential to salvation. This is a work of man. “God's own holiness thus requires perseverance. "God's grace insures our persevering`but this does not make it any less our persevering."21 Believers cannot acquire "the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus" unless they "press on toward the goal" (Phil 3:14).”He is adding to the gospel, not understanding that all his sins have already been judged at Calvary. Perseverance does not make salvation effectual! Faith does! Also, note he admits this perseverance is “our” perseverance, not simply God’s.

It is hard to know where Terry is coming from on this.  It is our persevering because (under God) it is the believer who is persevering. Even though (in justification) faith is a gift from God, yet God does not believe for us. We believe. Likewise God does not persevere for us, but he does enable us to persevere for Him. We do not need to go down the hypothetical road of "What if a Christian is not persevering?" which (as seen above) negates this concern about the sins being already forgiven etc., Amazing as this may sound, I think Terry is actually displaying tendencies akin to those of Hyper Calvinism (!)  Which is strange, because here we have the Calvinists rightly emphasising the responsibility of man, while Terry appears to be robbing man of any responsibility at all.

“The maintenance of a Christian's faith is as much His work as every other aspect of salvation. Faith is kindled and driven and maintained and fortified by God's grace. But to say that faith is God's gracious gift, which He maintains, is not to say that faith operates apart from the human will. The means by which God maintains their faith involves their full participation.”

Here he was teaching this “maintaining” of our faith is all of God, with our “participation.” If it is with our “participation”, then it is not all of God. Yet salvation is of God. I am not kept saved by my “participation.” That would be me working. There is no way around that. I am kept saved because of the Lord Jesus Christ alone. It is clear Calvinist believe perseverance is necessary for salvation. It is making faith contingent upon perseverance, which is a work of man!

Kept saved without you participating? I don't think even the Hypers would say that. Is man entirely passive? Does God just take over and leave our hearts and wills untouched? Can we not participate without exacting or expecting some merit from it?  This is the strangest thing I've heard in a long time! Maybe this has been worded clumsily but it doesn't sound right. Any comments from readers sympathetic to Terry's position on this one?

Bro MacArthur again, “Consequently, many people who utterly lack any love for the Lord Jesus Christ are being given a false hope of heaven. True Christians love Christ.”

Here, he is exactly correct. His conclusion is true, Christians love Christ. AMEN! That is exactly right. We love Christ not to BE saved, but because we are saved. Yet the teaching of following the Lord faithfully (perseverance) fails to distinguish this point.

I don't see where McArthur (or any Calvinist) says that we love Christ in order to be saved. There is nothing meritorious in our loving of Christ. It flows from the work of God in our heart. We are saved by grace alone through faith alone, and the faith that justifies produces evidence which includes love for Him.

Many people think if perseverance is not true then you can sin all you want and never face consequences. That is not true and it too lacks understanding of what took place at salvation. When the Lord saved me, he indwelled me. (Rom 8:9) He gave my spirit life. (Eph 2:1) As a result I am a “...new creature: old things are passed away behold all things are become new.” Because I am saved, I will follow my Lord. Those who profess to be saved, yet do not follow are not saved. John 8:31 We all agree a vain profession saves no one! At the moment of my salvation all my sins were imputed unto Jesus and His Righteousness was imputed unto me. (Romans 4; II Corinthians 5:21) Thus I am eternally secure. The penalty of sin has been paid for on behalf by Jesus Christ.

Every Calvinist would say "Amen" to this.

The teaching of the perseverance of the saints makes a RESULT of salvation a CONDITION of salvation and thus the error. This error is believed and taught because of a lack of understanding of what took place at our salvation. The fruit of repentance will show up in a desire and love for the Lord. It is a result of salvation.

The Calvinistic doctrine of the perseverance of the saints teaches that people are saved by grace through faith. Those who thus trust Christ for salvation will infallibly persevere to the end because they will infallibly follow the means that God has to this end. This means that they will add several virtues to their saving faith as exhorted in 2 Peter 1:5-12 ("And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.  But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.  Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.")  Is this all without the Believer's anticipation? I must be honest and say that I shake my head in utter disbelief at such a statement. Again, let me say it, the Christian perseveres only because he is enabled to do so by God.  There is no merit in any thing that the believer does. He is justified before God by faith alone without works, but he will persevere by God's help by actively participating in what is required of him. A professing believer who does not so persevere will be shown at last to have been an empty professor - a hypocrite whose hope will perish.

Please remember back to my first post on how salvation works. It is our sin that has to be dealt with. Our sin was dealt with by the work of Jesus Christ on the cross. It is not dependent upon my perseverance. Let me finish with the Bible, itself, address the issue. The following verses are Romans 4:1-8. The key verses being the last few. (One might be thinking, why Romans 4:1-8 it does not talk about perseverance. Exactly!!!) (Rom 4:1-8) What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the Scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

The juvenile argument again as exposed above. 

I hope and pray this post is of help to some!

With all due respects, it is hard to see how it can. The teaching that is being forward here is akin to that of the "Let go and let God" contingent which encourages the professing Christian to merely sit back. Why should I endure hardness as a good soldier of Jesus Christ? (2 Timothy 2:3) Why even bother with the armour of God? (Ephesians 6) Why resist sin unto blood? The moment I raise my hand to do these things, I am automatically charged with trying to get in on God's act. God works through means and while justification is by faith alone, such cannot be said of  sanctification or perseverance as 2 Peter 1:5-12 rightly points out.

I suspect there will be more postings. The original post points out the supposed dangers of  the whole TULIP doctrines. I can only hope that there will be an improvement on the other 4 points, as there is nothing to worry about so far in regards to the Calvinistic doctrine of perseverance of the saints. Colin Maxwell.

Situation as at Friday 13th October, 2006   Terry hasn't posted for two days now and the discussion has moved unto the comments page of his various postings on his blog. Others have added their tuppence worth as well, both Calvinist and non Calvinist alike. I am reproducing below my comments with Terry's reply to me. This will help to keep me focussed as much as anything else. The time zones are as they appear on Terry's blog.

Colin Maxwell said... Conscious that this is someone else's blog, but if I might advertise the fact that I have been analyising Terry's points on the following webpage: <http://www.corkfpc.com/mcgoverncalvinism.html> This is a serious response to serious issues and will be kept free of any rancour etc., 
October 12, 2006 2:50 AM
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Terry McGovern said... Colin, I have some questions for you. You said you agreed all of your sins have already been judged. You agreed you have ALREADY received the righteousness of Christ. If your sins have already been judged, why do you need to persevere? Is not the one thing keeping you from eternal life (sin) been taken care of by Jesus Christ?
October 12, 2006 9:49 AM
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Terry McGovern said...  Colin, Kent brought out a good point. I want to follow that up with a question. Do you believe perseverance is needed for justification before God?
October 12, 2006 4:27 PM
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Colin Maxwell said...Terry, There are three aspects to salvation.

1) Justification: A forensic act whereby God accounts me righteous in His sight on the basis of His grace (Romans 3:24) paid for by the blood of Christ (Romans 5:9) and mine when I received it by faith (Romans 5:1) This is a perfect justification - cannot increase or be diminished - and is a one off act which will stand good for all eternity.

2) Sanctification: An inward process upon my soul whereby God makes me good. He gives me a new nature and new desires etc., (2 Corinthians 5:17) This ebbs and flows according as I, by His Spirit's help, obey Him or otherwise. My understanding of perseverance of the saints is that we persevere in holiness - we seek to live in the world, but not be of the world. For Calvinists to insist on perseverance of the saints is not to add anything to justification (I think that's were you're getting it confused) but to live out the justification in our lives. If we are not being sanctified (note the ongoing process) then we may query (at the very least) whether we are truly saved. I accept that such introspection can lead to doubts etc., but they are needful doubts if we believe we are saved when we are not. We must keep looking to Christ (Hebrews 12:2) but such a look will bear fruit and if there is no fruit, then the root of the matter is not in us. True Christians, through the means God has given, involving our participation, persevere in holiness unto the end.

3) Glorification. For us, yet future when we go (either at death or at the Return of the Lord Jesus) to be forever with the Lord and live, without sin, with Him for all eternity.

Salvation is more than merely being forgiven for our sins and enjoying the mansions above and be with Him 10,000 years and more. It involves denying ourselves here on earth and seeking to glorify Him by our holy living. The world doesn't want us to do it. The Devil certainly doesn't want us to do it and our own flesh is forever kicking against it, but (by God's grace and help) we persevere or overcome unto the end. This is the norm for every last Christian. It is the evidence of life - not the cause. There is no merit in what we do, although God graciously rewards us for it.

When Calvinists insist on these things (as the Bible does) it is to prevent empty professions. We do live in age of consumer type Christianity where repentance etc., is considered a turn off for prospective "converts" and where empty professions abound. Therefore we need to insist more than ever (without being unbalanced about it) that the good tree necessarily brings forth fruit, otherwise it is cumbering the ground and will be removed.
I hope this helps. 

October 12, 2006 4:33 PM

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Terry McGovern said... Colin,

We would agree about the evidence, but I am surprised by your comment. Are you saying you do not believe perseverance plays an effectual role in salvation?

Hypothetical:
If the Lord did not help you "persevere" after salvation would you have everlasting life or could you lose eternal life? Please don’t tell me you won’t answer because it is not possible. I understand that. Your answer though, will clarify for me what you are saying.
Thanks
October 12, 2006 6:55 PM

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Colin Maxwell said...  *Are you saying you do not believe perseverance plays an effectual role in salvation?*

Perseverance has no contribution whatsoever to the justification of the Christian. Justification is based entirely, 100% on the work of Christ. My receving it by faith does not contribute to it in any way.

Perseverance is solely the *evidence* that we have *already been* justified before God (the argument of James 2) and is an ongoing process, accomplished as we overcome the world by His grace, through the channel of our faith (1 John 5:4) with faith being the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22) I think this is clear enough.

October 12, 2006 9:58 PM

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Colin Maxwell said...

* Hypothetical; If the Lord did not help you "persevere" after salvation would you have everlasting life or could you lose eternal life? Please don’t tell me you won’t answer because it is not possible. I understand that. Your answer though, will clarify for me what you are saying. *

I can't answer you here, simply because I cannot turn to the Bible for those answers. The Bible deals with realities…not hypothetical situations. Eternal life is more than "life for a long infinite period of time". Eternal life is also a *quality* of life. When I believed, I received not only an instantaneous and perfect justification, based purely and solely on the grace of God. I also received the new nature that overcomes or perseveres. If I do not overcome or persevere, then I cannot claim to have that eternal life of which the Bible speaks. Therefore I cannot lose what I have never had. I hope this clarifies it for you.

October 12, 2006 10:05 PM

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Terry McGovern said... Colin, You are clearly avoiding my questions. The first question was a yes or no question. Please answer it yes or no.

For the second question you stated "I cannot turn to the Bible for those answers," concerning the hypothetical scenerio I gave. In your rebuttal to my post you stated you read the sermon by John Piper, in which I refered too in my post. One purpose of Bro Pipers sermon was to show that you could go to the Bible for those answers. He was using the text in Hebrews to demonstrate that. (Of course, he did not believe he would lose his salvation, but none the less he needed to "fear faithlessness" which leads to "coming short of God's rest." It was also discussed in John MacArthur's essay as well under "The problem of Quantification." RC Sproul's comment was directly addresing the question I gave you.

Let me ask it this way:(I think you will find it more palatable in this format.)
Do you agree with RC Sproul's following statement? (YES OR NO)

"In and of myself I am capable of sinning even unto the loss of my salvation, but I'm persuaded that God in his grace will keep me from that. (“Can a Sinning Christian Lose His Salvation”?)"

After answering the questions,"yes" or "no" go ahead and give your explanation. But please answer each one yes or no.

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Terry McGovern said... Steve , Colin and Joel,

I would like your thoughts on this quote from JI Packer. He was commenting on the Confession.

"Reformed theology echoes this emphasis. The Westminster Confession declares, They, whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved. (XVII.1)"

Packer continues,
"The doctrine declares that the regenerate are saved through persevering in faith and Christian living to the end (Heb. 3:6; 6:11; 10:35-39), and that it is God who keeps them persevering.

Is not his explanation of the Confession making perseverance effectual to salvation?
Am I saved by persevering in faith?
Again, I would like your thoughts about what he says here.
Here is the link to the remark: http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/packer/perseverance.html
October 13, 2006 2:42 PM

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Colin Maxwell said...

Terry, I think any confusion here is emanating from your use of the general word "salvation". This is why I followed the Bible line and use the 3 different terms above that it embraces - each of which has different connotations. My fear is that if I say "yes" but only as it regards sanctification, then you will apply it to justification and I am left with a works gospel, which is as anathema to Calvinists as it was to Paul himself. I fear if I say "no" but only as it regards justification, then I leave myself exposed to preaching that men can consider themselves counted righteous before God even if there is no evidence of this fact in their lives.

Bearing that in mind, here is your "yes" or "no" answer:

First question: *Are you saying you do not believe perseverance plays an effectual role in salvation?*

If by salvation, you mean " justification" then "Yes…I DO NOT believe that perseverance plays any role in salvation." We are justified before God by faith alone, without works of any kind. Works only prove that we have been already justified (James 2)

If by salvation, you mean "sanctification" then, "Yes, I DO believe that perseverance plays an effectual role in salvation." It is the *evidence* that we are *already justified by faith alone* and it involves us overcoming the world etc., and remaining faithful unto the end. We are kept by the power of God through (overcoming) faith, God working in us both to will and to do His good pleasure (which is to see every last child of God brought home safely to Heaven for His own glory.)

While we must separate justification and sanctification for the purposes of discussion and discussion, the two go hand in hand together in real experience and we should not put asunder what God has joined together. It is not a matter of avoiding your questions, but a matter (as indicated in my first paragraph above) of preserving the purity of the gospel.

Secondly: Do you agree with RC Sproul's following statement? (YES OR NO)

"In and of myself I am capable of sinning even unto the loss of my salvation, but I'm persuaded that God in his grace will keep me from that. (“Can a Sinning Christian Lose His Salvation”?)"

YES. The qualifier is "In and of myself" which is another hypothetical situation. We are not left to such a precarious state as being "in and of ourselves" - We are completely surrounded and protected by the preserving grace of God - the *evidence* of which is our overcoming of the world until we reach Heaven at the last. All summed up in Peter's words: "Kept by the power of God through faith." God gives me the faith to persevere, and I believe with the faith that He gives me. God's sovereignty and man's responsibility sitting harmoniously together. As it should ever be.

Kent: I'm afraid like Steve, I'm going to have to concentrate on Terry's replies as it gets too much trying to keep up with two discussions at once. However, I'm sure you would agree that Terry is doing a good job!

Advance notice: I'll be away for a few days from tomorrow (Saturday) so it is possible that any response from then might be delayed until my return.

October 13, 2006 6:30 PM

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Terry McGovern said...

Colin, I will reply to your post in the morning. I have had a long day and need to get to bed. Between finishing my sermon for Sunday, and this discussion I am wore out! Please, if you can, respond to Kent. I would like to see what you think about his comments. Also, I appreciate the manner in which Steven and Colin are discussing this with Kent and I. Not too many debates, concerning Calvinism, stay friendly!

October 13, 2006 8:39 PM

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Colin Maxwell said...

Having been away from the debate for a couple of days and thus able to view it away from the "battleground" I think there is more agreement among the various participants than perhaps supposed. As I see it:

Both sides are particularly anxious to prevent easy believism. We both make allowances for true Believers growing cold or falling into individual sins e.g. like David who was plunged into adultery etc., We both accept that all true Believers are in the ongoing process of being sanctified and that this sanctification is not perfect and never will be in this life. But if a *professing* believer produces absolutely no fruit in his life and shows no evidence that he is a child of God (such as the marks given in 1 John) then his words mean very little, if anything, no matter how many times he has walked an isle or said the sinner's prayer. Saving faith always produces good works as an evidence (Ephesians 2:8-10/James 2 etc.,)

Calvinists do not believe that men are justified through their sanctified works - justification is by grace through faith in the work of Christ alone - but that such faith effectually produces good works. No praying of mine or serious Bible study or any Christian service or any pious virtue of mine, such as are commanded in the NT, can ever justify me before God. However, we do believe that God's grace will effectually produce such things in the normal course of events in a Believer's life.

I wonder are we merely disputing about terms here? If so, then one of the petals of the TULIP is not dangerous as Terry first alleged in his original posting on Calvinism. At least as far as the last of the 5 points are concerned, it poses no serious threat at all, but (since it is but NT Christianity) will prove to be its greatest friend. Even the most faithful ministries see empty professions - our Lord Himself did e.g. Judas Iscariot - but a true ministry, as far as is humanly possible, will not encourage the fruitless professors, but will warn them of their danger. Not because they can lose their justification and hope of glory, but because the evidence points to the fact that they never possessed them in the first place.

October 18, 2006 6:13 PM

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Terry McGovern said...

Colin, The problem is, Colin, we are not merely disputing terms. If that were true, then you would be correct, there would be no real danger. There is still a MAJOR disagreement between us. The fact is Calvinism teaches perseverance is essential part in salvation. That, without the Lord helping Christians persevere, one could lose their salvation. This is a falsehood that lacks understanding as to what took place at salvation. This fact is substantiated by the quotes I provided from leaders within the Calvinism movement. Such as:
RC Sproul: “In and of myself I am capable of sinning even unto the loss of my salvation, but I'm persuaded that God in his grace will keep me from that. (“Can a Sinning Christian Lose His Salvation”?)
J.I. Packer: “The doctrine declares that the regenerate are saved through persevering in faith and Christian living to the end (Heb. 3:6; 6:11; 10:35-39), and that it is God who keeps them persevering.”
John Piper: “Anyone who puts faith in God's promises bought for us by the blood of Jesus, and is diligent not to throw that faith away, is a part of the people of God.”
John MacArthur: “God's own holiness thus requires perseverance. "God's grace insures our persevering`but this does not make it any less our persevering."21 Believers cannot acquire "the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus" unless they "press on toward the goal" (Phil 3:14).”

WE are NOT eternally secure because of perseverance. We are eternally secure because of the finished work of Jesus Christ. My sins CAN NOT be imputed unto me ever again. My previous comment covered this point, of which you made to attempt to refute.

This false doctrine, which teaches perseverance is necessary for salvation thus making works an essential to salvation, is dangerous. Anything that adds to the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ is dangerous. Persevering involves works. Even though Calvinist claim perseverance is all of the Lord, it does not change the fact that it is still their works. Our perseverance is only evidence of salvation, and it is not effectual. It is the RESULT of salvation, and it is not in any way, or part the CAUSE of salvation. As I said to begin with, Calvinism teaches an unscriptural reason for eternal security. This is dangerous!

In a month or so, I will move on to the “T” of TULIP. I hope you will keep checking back so we can once again discuss Calvinism. If you would like me to email you once I post, drop me an email and let me know.  Side note: Colin, , I do hope to travel to Ireland one day. My great Grandparents came to America from Ireland. If I do, maybe we can get together for lunch and discuss the issue in person. :)

October 19, 2006 9:23 PM

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Colin Maxwell said...
Terry,

I wish you would use the more defining words of "justification" or "sanctification" when you talk about "salvation" otherwise, we will just go round and round in circles. I still think we are a lot closer than you are prepared to make out. Don't let the fear of man take over here. Don't worry, we won't brand you a "One point Calvinist" or anything like that :0) Look forward to seeing you in Ireland. What part did your folks come from? If they were Scotch-Irish Presbyterians...hmmmmmm

October 20, 2006 4:37 AM

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 Terry McGovern said...
Colin,

If you would like your second comment published let me know. My guess is you thought your first one did not take because I enabled "moderate comments." (I noticed the second comment was pretty much the same as the first.) (The traffic at my blog has picked up substantially. As a result, I enabled comment moderation. Before enabling it, I waited until I thought this discussion was over.) I am waiting to hear back from my brother as to what part of Ireland. My family was Catholic though. I was the first in the family to accept the Lord.

October 20, 2006 9:13 AM
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There has been no more movement on this debate. It is likely that it will move unto another one of the Five Points. However, before we close it on this page, it is worth recording the words of the Westminster Confession of Faith on this subject of the Perseverance of the Saints. I do this because:

[i] It simplifies the whole matter of what is the Reformed view on what the Scriptures teach on this issue.  I, for one, don't fancy standing batting all day on every last quote from some Calvinist which is perceived to teach otherwise. It is assumed that the reader knows that we regard the WCF as being subordinate to the Scriptures, but fundamentally faithful to what the Scriptures teach.

[ii] You can see for yourself from what is written below whether there is anything to suggest that we kept by works.

THE WESTMINSTER CONFESSION OF FAITH
CHAPTER SEVENTEEN
PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS:

17:1 They, whom God hath accepted in His Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally, nor finally, fall away from the state of grace: but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved (Joh_10:28, Joh_10:29; Phi_1:6; 1Pe_1:5, 1Pe_1:9; 2Pe_1:10; 1Jo_3:9).

17:2 This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father (Jer_31:3; 2Ti_2:18, 2Ti_2:19); upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ (Luk_22:32; Joh_17:11, Joh_17:24; Rom_8:33-39; Heb_7:25; Heb_9:12-15; Heb_10:10, Heb_10:14; Heb_13:20, Heb_13:21); the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them (Joh_14:16, Joh_14:17; 1Jo_2:27; 1Jo_3:9); and the nature of the covenant of grace (Jer_32:40): from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof (Joh_10:28; 2Th_3:3; 1Jo_2:19).

17:3 Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins (Mat_26:70, Mat_26:72, Mat_26:74); and, for a time, continue therein (Psa_51:14 and title): whereby they incur God’s displeasure (2Sa_11:27; Isa_64:5, Isa_64:7, Isa_64:9), and grieve His Holy Spirit (Eph_4:30), come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts (Psa_51:8, Psa_51:10, Psa_51:12; Son_5:2-4, Son_5:6; Rev_2:4), have their hearts hardened (Isa_36:17; Mar_6:52; Mar_16:14), and their consciences wounded (Psa_32:3, Psa_32:4; Psa_51:8), hurt and scandalize others (2Sa_12:14), and bring temporal judgments upon themselves (Psa_89:31, Psa_89:32; 1Co_11:32).

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Colin Maxwell said...

Terry, As I was writing some concluding remarks on our debate on the Perseverance of the Saints on the webpage which I set aside on our church Website http://www.corkfpc.com/mcgoverncalvinism.html I decided to look and see what the Calvinistic Westminster Confession of Faith declared on this very issue. Without necessarily agreeing with it all, yet I am sure that you will see nothing there that suggests that the people of God are able to work for their salvation as charged. I don't particularly want to open up the whole debate again, especially if you consider it closed, but I felt it worth while drawing attention to the WCF. The 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith says the same thing.
Colin.

October 30, 2006 7:09 AM

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Terry McGovern said...

Hello Colin, I have read some statements by Calvinist that I agree with concerning perseverance of the saints. However, as you and I both know, Calvinism DOES teach perseverance is essential/effectual in salvation. This is scripturally incorrect. I fully understand what aspect of salvation (sanctification) Calvinist put perseverance under. Like I said to begin with, the problem lies with a lack of understanding as to what takes place when a person is saved. Perseverance has NO effectual workings in regards to salvation. It is ONLY evidence. I am eternally saved already. Why? Because ALL my sins are already paid for. Therefore I can NEVER lose my salvation. To teach perseverance plays an effectual role is teaching works salvation. I think in my two post, as well as a few of my previous comments, I demonstrated how salvation works and why we are eternally saved.

As long as you believe perseverance plays an effectual role we will not agree. If you cease believing it pays an effectual role, you would be a 4 point Calvinist. :)

October 30, 2006 6:16 PM
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Colin Maxwell said...

Terry, We both know that Calvinists put perseverance under the sanctification part of salvation.  If I read you right, you think that Calvinists introduce perseverance into the justification end of things i.e. in your own words "all my sins are already paid for". However, there is nothing in the Calvinistic Confession (WCF) section under Perseverance which teaches that - a strange omission indeed if it were true - because it is a vital subject. This leaves me wondering then if the WCF under Justification makes up this supposed lack. Whay do I find there? The Larger Catechism tackles the matter of justification by faith on a number of questions, including the following. I have CAPITALISED the relevant parts as they relate to this controversy for emphasis:

Question 70: What is justification?
Answer: Justification is an act of God's free grace unto sinners, in which he pardons all their sins, accepts and accounts their persons righteous in his sight; NOT FOR ANYTHING WROUGHT IN THEM, OR DONE BY THEM, but ONLY for the perfect obedience and full satisfaction of Christ, by God imputed to them, and received by faith alone.

Question 71: How is justification an act of God's free grace?
Answer: Although Christ, by his obedience and death, did make a proper, real, and full satisfaction to God's justice in the behalf of them that are justified; yet inasmuch as God accepts the satisfaction from a surety, which he might have demanded of them, and did provide this surety, his own only Son, imputing his righteousness to them, and REQURING NOTHING OF THEM FOR THEIR JUSTIFICATION BUT FAITH, which also is his gift, THEIR JUSTIFICATION IS TO THEM OF FREE GRACE.

Question 72: What is justifying faith?
Answer: Justifying faith is a saving grace, wrought in the heart of a sinner by the Spirit and Word of God, whereby he, being convinced of his sin and misery, and of the disability in himself and all other creatures to recover him out of his lost condition, not only assents to the truth of the promise of the gospel, but receives and rests upon Christ and his righteousness, therein held forth, for pardon of sin, and for the accepting and accounting of his person righteous in the sight of God for salvation.

Question 73: How does faith justify a sinner in the sight of God?
Answer: Faith justifies a sinner in the sight of God, NOT BECAUSE OF THOSE OTHER GRACES WHICH DO ALWAYS ACCOMPANY IT, OR OF GOOD WORKS THAT ARE THE FRUITS OF IT, OR ANY ACT THEREOF, WHERE IMPUTED TO HIM FOR HIS JUSTIFICATION; but only as it is an instrument by which he receives and applies Christ and his righteousness.

If we go back to the WCF section on Perseverance, once the Calvinist states that the saint will can neither totally, nor finally, fall away from the state of grace: but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved, it tells us what this perseverance depends upon. It denies that it depends upon their own free will, but that it flows from the immutable decree of election, based alone on the unchangeable love of the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and interecession of Christ, the abiding of the Holy Spirit and seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace along with all that is certain and infallible in that. To have our salvation hinge on our perseverance (as you insist Calvinists believe) flies in the face of what our Confession clearly teaches.

I accept that there are several cases here of cutting and pasting, but this is due to the seriousness of the charge and (thankfully) the fact that the WCF men were so careful to state their case accurately. We believe that  the other graces always accompany justification (as evidence) and good works are the fruit of it, but Q73 makes it abundantly clear, that they are NOT THE CAUSE (and therefore are not effectual, as you keep arguing) in the justification of the sinner. Faith is the instrument - the cause is Christ and His righteousness.

I think the danger here from your point of view  (I say this kindly) is that you might well be fighting straw men who do not exist in reality. You cannot show me from the WCF (which was the basis of the 1689 Baptist Confession) where Calvinists teach what *you* say they teach.

November 05, 2006 7:29 PM

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Terry McGovern said...

Colin, We are arguing your belief about salvation itself, and not just the justification part. I know what you believe about justification. The problem lies with what you believe concerning progressive sanctification and what roles it plays in relation to salvation. Here is a statement from you, 

“If by salvation, you mean "sanctification" then, "Yes, I DO believe that perseverance plays an effectual role in salvation." How can you say I am addressing a straw man!? I am addressing exactly what you believe. Calvinist believe that if God did not give a persevering faith they could fall away. They believe they are eternally secure because they will persevere until the end. Here is your statement:

“the saint will can neither totally, nor finally, fall away from the state of grace: but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.”

Why can the saint neither “totally nor finally fall away” according to this statement, because of “perseverance to the end”. Scripturally incorrect. I will not fall away, because I will NEVER again have sin imputed unto me. Rom 4:8 THAT IS WHY WE ARE ETERNALLY SECURE!

ALSO,
Notice the future tense of salvation in this sentence from your comment about the WCF. “BE eternally saved”. That too is scripturally incorrect! I am eternally saved! It is not that I will “be” eternally saved.

(John 3:36) He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

I have eternal life! It is NOT something I am waiting for pending my perseverance. What I tried to do with my post and comments was to try and get you to see how y